Chantal (right) exemplifies the gender stereotype that in order for us to dislike a woman, she has to be ugly too.
Book of Unwritten Tales 2 takes a lot from fantasy and gaming culture…but does it take some of the ugly things too? You may have guessed what I’m referring to, but I assure you it’s a little broader than just that. Yes, my friends, I mean the rather unorthodox nature of Ivo’s magical pregnancy.
Do I want to be a party pooper? Certainly not! I will readily confess that some of the gag’s related to Ivo’s surprising state of health managed to get me to laugh out loud more than once. That didn’t stop me from seeing how problematic this sub-plot was in the game. This, coupled with the other representations of women, were concerning.
Ivo’s long journey is complicated by the fact that she is struggling with a sped up pregnancy.
Ivo was accidentally impregnated by Nate when residual power from a powerful artifact (via the first game) grants the rogue’s secret wish to start a family with the elf princess. Romantic and sweet perhaps, but until we reach this moment, Ivo is ridiculed and shunned by many of the characters in Book of Unwritten Tales 2. She’s called fat often, and at one point Nate’s ship, The Mary, even goes so far as to call Ivo a whore. Naturally, Nate gives her a hard time, and it isn’t until Ivo’s virgin kiss restores Arch Mage Alistair that Nate believes she never betrayed him. Being a girl, I struggled to think what I would feel, knowing someone impregnated me without my knowledge (and against my will!) It was scary and disconcerting that a woman getting pregnant without her consent was considered funny, and not just that, but it was just a cheap gag for KING Art Games that served as an excuse to drag Ivo into the main story. As if she couldn’t find some other pressing reason to leave the elf burrow!
Couple that with the other women in Book of Unwritten Tales 2, and we see an alarming attitude toward women forming. Here’s a quick rundown:
- The elf Queen, Ivo’s mother: Control freak, snobby, manipulative, perfectionist
- Cybil & Chantal Van Buren: Ugly, power hungry, spoiled, ruthless
- Vlad’s fiancee, Kiki: Ignorant, gold digger, shameless eye candy, materialistic
- Lizzie, the bounty hunter: greedy, manipulative
Ethel (center) lacks the problematic characterizations of the others, but she still is cast in the stereotypical role of cook and “homemaker.”
Now you could argue that many of the men are also shown in poor light, but I would counter that their representation in the game is not so fueled by gender stereotypes. I know that KING Art perhaps did not mean any harm. After all, Ivo’s mother tries to redeem herself, Lizzie is just trying to help her people, and Kiki opened the seventh seal of Van Buren’s chest that was only meant for one “worthy of heart.” Regardless of what the devs meant, however, I think it’s plausible to think that Book of Unwritten Tales 2 exhibits symptoms of a larger, more widespread problem in the entertainment world. The only way to combat these trends is, of course, to acknowledge them, wherever they may be.
>>Now you could argue that many of the men are also shown in poor light,
but I would counter that their representation in the game is not so
fueled by gender stereotypes.
The elf Queen, Ivo’s mother: Control freak, snobby, manipulative, perfectionist
Cybil & Chantal Van Buren: Ugly, power hungry, spoiled, ruthless
Vlad’s fiancee, Kiki: Ignorant, gold digger, shameless eye candy, materialistic
Lizzie, the bounty hunter: greedy, manipulative
Outside of, maybe, part about gold digger, none of this seem to be “fueled by gender stereotypes”.
As a contributor on the site, I have to avoid wordiness, so sometimes I cannot help but gloss over certain details. Allow me to clarify what I was getting at.
1. The Elf Queen’s obsession with perfection (particularly Ivo’s weight) exemplifies the vain woman, concerned primarily with appearance. This is a by-product of society that often reduces a woman down to her looks and “femininity”, leading some women to take this overboard and make it the top concern in their lives (dieting, anorexia, obsession with fashion). She’s also a perfect example of the domineering mother, who micro-manages her family and their surroundings. There’s plenty of tropes on TVtropes.org that are this, are similar to this, and show lots of examples: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/EvilMatriarch http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MyBelovedSmother http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/HiveQueen
2. Cybil & Chantal Van Buren could have been evil enough just by how they behaved, but King ART took it a step further by making them very unattractive, and obviously they did this to make us dislike them. Are male villains also made ugly in media? Yes! Look at Jabba the Hutt. But if you were to take all the male villains from film, video games, books, and television, then compare them to the female villains? I GUARANTEE you that more of the women can be undeniably described as “ugly”. Why? Because male villains typically exemplify a wider range of unsavory traits, like cowardice, rage, perversion, and greed. A man who isn’t all that attractive isn’t automatically seen in a negative light, at least, not in the way women are. If you need a more specific example, look at the animated Disney female villains. Ursula, Lady Tremaine (aka the Wicked Stepmother), Madam Mim, Yzma, Cruella De Vil, The Queen of Hearts… They look masculine, pale, and in some cases fat or emaciated. And the funny thing is that the flipside to an unattractive female villain is a VERY attractive one. A temptress, a slut, someone who is disloyal…
I would also like to add that the only reason Cybil and Chantal are threats at all in this story is because Cybil married a male Van Buren. Why couldn’t she just be a villainess in her own right? I realize the first game had a female villain too, but I can’t really comment on it as I haven’t played the first game (as I mentioned in my review.)
3. As for Lizzie, I’ll grant you that she’s perhaps one of the milder cases here, but she still has some issues in her characterization. Take for instance her willingness to use her feminine charm to trick Wilbur into giving her all the gold for the bounty hunting job. Then go back further and recall how she and Nate went back and forth about how many wishes each would get. As I recall, she went so far as to threaten him for most if not all the wishes. Perhaps without the scene later with Wilbur, you’d be right to say her character wasn’t being based in some gender stereotype, but to be perfectly honest, with the level and degree that women are often misrepresented in media, if your character is in for the penny, they’re usually in for the pound.
I will never understand people that think media has to get rid of stereotypes just because they are stereotypes – even though people like that actually exist, there are many of them, and they will never disappear. I always thought that the right way tro balance is more characters that do not use said stereotypes, not less of those who use them. Still though, point 1 taken.
As for 2 and 3… I know that being a white male I’m not really allowed to argue on matters of inequality or stereotypes, but for me it kinda sounds like you tried to find something to be offended about every character. “willingness to use her feminine charm” is an issue in characterization? For my money, if a beautiful adult person, no matter the gender, doesn’t use his sexuality to a certain degree (in situations that call for it) – that is more of an issue with characterization. Unless he/she distinctly doesn’t want to, obviously – witch can be the case – but that also turns said character into a walking “strong independent” trope.
And I don’t really believe that there are more ugly female villains than a male ones. There are pretty much two designs for villains in the world: one based on a notion that you look on the outside the very way you are on the inside, and the other – total opposite. That has nothing to do with sex, really. And also: if Cruella De Vil is ugly, than Jaffar is doubly so.
First of all, just because you are a white male does not mean you are not entitled to your opinion, BUT I wish as a white male given your position in society, you wouldn’t say things like “You just tried to find reasons to be offended by stuff” because it’s not only an unworthy retort in this discussion, it is entirely dismissive and fails to contribute any further understanding other than the fact that you don’t want to analyze the issue that hard. Secondly, if you’ll recall what I said in my article, you’d understand that I wasn’t offended by BoUT2 so much as just concerned. I liked the game. It made me laugh. But just because I like something, that means I can’t recognize its flaws?
I could come up with an entire essay for you on female villains, and why there are more unattractive ones than males (and why the unattractive female villains generate a stronger response from audiences due to expectations of how women “ought” to look) but to be perfectly honest I haven’t got the time. Also, the example of Jaffar was entirely unnecessary. I know there are unattractive male Disney villains. You’re missing my point regarding the ratios. Of total female villains, MORE females are designed to be unattractive than males. That list of female Disney villains I just gave you? That comprises of most of the gender for the bad Disney women roster. It’s a pretty salient point and easy to fact check.
I’m sorry, but I’ll have to side on the dude with the Russian name here. I’m not trying to ruffle any feathers here, but it does sound like you’re trying to find an excuse to be offended by the characterization of the women in the game. Ivo was an incredibly strong and independent character in the first game and she is in this one, too. She’s just pregnant. And she carries herself with the same grace and dignity that she did previously. I actually enjoyed the bantering between her and Nate. They’ve always had a love/hate relationship and that makes their story that much more interesting. It’s like the early Han/Leia story in Star Wars.
I also noticed that you left out some other female characters. Esther the zombie is a very good example of how someone who’s usually on the receiving end of hate that finds the strength to carry on with Gulliver and N8 and even help Wilbur in the final act. And I know how hard it is to continue on in the face of adversity where “we don’t like their kind here”. In short, I focused on the positive and humorous aspects of the game, not dwelling on perpetuating stereotypes (for good or bad).
I think we’re all going to have to agree to disagree on that, Serena. I don’t think I was looking for reasons to be offended, and again, I find issue with that word as I’m not offended, merely pointing out the problematic themes in the story. I didn’t think it necessary to bring up Esther because of what you said. There isn’t anything wrong with her characterization, and as you know being the newest contributor to the site, we have word counts to try and adhere to. I thought it best to focus on the matter at hand.
And I never said Ivo was not a strong and independent character. I posited that her forced and unwanted pregnancy, plus the experiences following that event (with the exception of the end) are perfectly parallel with many rape stories (specifically date rape stories) in which a woman is impregnated against their will by an unknown assailant, and then shunned and ridiculed.
I’m well aware of the word count so I know you had to focus on specific examples. I just brought Esther up as a non-stereotypical example. I also agree that the conversation should end here in this regard. Anything else I say could conceivably escalate the situation and that’s just something I don’t want to see happen. As you say, we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
I wasn’t trying to be dismissive. I’m sorry if it came out that way – it’s not always easy to formulate your thoughts in your second language.
What I was trying to say, is that it feels like some legit concerns over a few scenes or characters colored your opinion over entire game and made you see misrepresentation in every little character element. I’m not even saying that this is what happened, and maybe you are right about every point – I’m yet to for my own opinion about the game so I wouldn’t know. But this is how what I’ve read felt like to me.
And when I was talking about Jaffar, I actually meant that I don’t think of him as THAT ugly of a man. And the same is true about Cruella. But I have to take that one back: it is just that I remembered her from a movie way better than from a cartoon. And she looked fine there, but GOD, she is a freaking zombie in an animated version!..
Still, when it comes to showing evil characters and prettiness it has way more to do with intended demographic than just stereotypes. For example, just a few days ago I’ve heard a story in a podcast, told by a developer of iOS hidden object games. She said, that their target audience are women in their forties or even fifties. And because of that they have to make a main heroine look… well, not ugly, but not sexy at all – otherwise players will envy and dislike her. Villains, on the other hand, are just fine being young and sexy – because that makes it easier for a target audience to hate them.
I’m not sure I can formulate any sort of point from that well enough, so I’ll just live it as an interesting fact I wanted to share.
As for pregnancy… I feel that it’s an important part of human life and it shouldn’t be discarded as a potential plot device just because it only concerns one gender. And if it is played for laughs… One of my favorite point’n’click comedy adventures is called Edna & Harvey: Harvey’s New Eyes – and it is about a crazy girl murdering a butt-load of children without even noticing it. So… I usually have no problem with people using serious matters for a laugh.
BUT. That said, in this particular topic I don’t really feel that my opinion should matter. If women think it’s offensive – I’ll just have to believe them. I would have problem if you’d say something like “THINGS LIKE THAT HAVE TO BE BANNED!!!111”. But pointing it out as problematic (which it probably is, to some extent) and getting people to see it in that light does look like a right thing to do.
Just so you know, I gave BoUT2 a very positive review here on Cliqist, which you can read here:http://cliqist.com/2015/04/15/giggles-and-puzzles-galore-in-the-book-of-unwritten-tales-2/
Next, I understand that perhaps part of why the story took this route was due to its demographic, which I would assume were young males. That is the exact reason I see this sort of depiction as potentially problematic.
I am also not against pregnancy or even rape being in a story. I just think that if the developers are going to have this be a part of their story, they ought to treat it more sensitively.
As I was saying to Serena, I think we’re coming to an impasse. I appreciate your thoughts though! I’m certainly not some authority figure, but I just wanted to raise awareness to this potential issue. Just because we like something doesn’t mean it doesn’t deserve further scrutiny.
>>Just because we like something doesn’t mean it doesn’t deserve further scrutiny.
That certainly is something I can totally agree with. I actually think that looking at bad/problematic parts of otherwise good games can be more useful than criticizing bad ones.
Thanks for an interesting dialog!
This is a very interesting read. With the exception of Kiki, which was an obvious allegory to gold diggers trying to grab at an old man’s fortunes, I didn’t particularly notice any gender stereotypes on either side of the fence. Okay, I hated the Van Burens but they’re supposed to be disliked, at least the mother. Because, you know, villains.
I’m not sure if you mean this, but I just can’t agree with the sentiment that just because the Van Burens were villains, it doesn’t matter how they were characterized. It does matter! There is a much higher trend of “ugly” female villains then there are male ones. Children’s cartoons show this all the time, especially in Hollywood. Male villains can be unattractive as well, but it doesn’t usually generate the same reaction from people, so it’s not as often done.
Even “attractive” female villains just manage to show a darker side to this thinking of what an “evil” woman must be. It’s a scary sexual objectification of women in societal imagination.
I never mentioned how they looked. Personally, I don’t think either are ugly physically speaking. And Chantal was just a naive child playing around with a magic wand. I know a thing or three about gender and their stereotypes. At worst, what has been depicted is a satire. Nothing more. The only one I had any real issue with, as I mentioned, was Kiki but I do understand her role in the game.
I think a lot of people would disagree with you about how they look. I know it’s all in the eye of the beholder, but personally I can see what the devs intended by how they designed the Van Buren’s appearances.
You’re right, you didn’t bring up their appearance, but you brought up the Van Burens, who I discussed at length regarding their appearances. I don’t think my assumption was a big leap.
Chantal was a naive child, but I don’t think King ART intended for her to be a sympathetic or even likeable one. Even Nate describes her as a horrible kid, or something to that effect.
If it’s a satire, what is it satirizing?
Well, the whole game is a satire. The series (all three games) poke fun at pretty much every trope imaginable. And, I suppose it’s because of my…”unique experiences” that I’m able to look at gender in a non-binary light. Which is why I don’t really see the stereotypes being brought up here. Other than a couple obvious ones.
Well I realize that the game pokes fun at various game tropes, but I’m just not sure what one King ART is trying to achieve with the Van Burens. I guess I’d have to play more of the series to see it that way.
Also, just FYI, I clarify my point further about the gender stereotypes in this comment: http://cliqist.com/2015/04/17/book-unwritten-tales-2-female-misrepresentation/#comment-1973753894 (just in case you’re responding through the actual disqus site or something and didn’t see it.)
The van Burens are a satire on Sarah Palin, according to the manual of the game: Cybill van Buren: “All-talk politicians in general and a certain lady from Alaska in particular.”
Chantal van Buren: “Chantal is based on the US TV personality Honey Boo Boo.”
If you’re referring to the extended manual from the DLC (the one that’s $9.99) I just want to make clear that I was only given the original game to review, so I wasn’t aware of this extra information. As for the fact that the van Burens were a satire of those two women…I think King Art missed the mark on that one. Never in the entire time that I was playing the game did I think, “Ah! This is taking a crack at Sarah Palin and Honey Boo Boo,” or even “Oh of course! They’re making fun of a certain variety of politicians and reality TV stars.” It just wasn’t clear enough, so I still take issue with their characterizations. Watch YouTube videos of people playing this game, and you won’t hear, “Ha! This is a funny jab at Palin/politicians and TV personalities,” you’ll hear something along the lines of, “Ugh, what an ugly, conniving bitch!” That’s an important distinction in perception that I’m disappointed no one seems to be acknowledging.
Just to reiterate: I don’t think King Art are rabid women-haters, nor do I think they meant any harm. As I stated in my editorial, I think they are just displaying symptoms of a larger societal problem in how we perceive and treat women in our entertainment. I don’t hate King Art, nor do I hate the game. I gave BoUT2 a very positive review. I do think, however, that just because I like something, that doesn’t mean I can’t criticize it for its failings.
Indeed, I probably wouldn’t have bothered with this article at all if it hadn’t been for Ivo’s non-consensual pregnancy and its parallel’s to date rape stories. I have no problem with pregnancy or even rape in stories, but I felt this game mishandled the subject. If I hadn’t felt that way, I wouldn’t have brought up the characterizations to begin with. In a way, I regret bothering to discuss the characterizations of the women in this game, because all I think it has succeeded in is distracting from the biggest issue.
So it offends you MORE that when people hate these characters, theyre only hating the fictional characters themselves, and that youd actually PREFER their hate to be more obviously transferable to the real-life human women that the characters where thematically based upon? That seems….weird.
In other words, “even though ugly villainous male characters are just as common as ugly villainous female characters, it bothers me more when female villains are ugly, because i myself am female. Also it bothers me when female villains ARENT ugly.”
Hi Amanda,
I’d say that the artifact hardly would have made Ivo pregnant if it was against her will. So I’d give the benefit of the doubt, here, and assume that this was a heartfelt wish shared by both Nate AND Ivo. Now of course this is still problematic and scary and maybe that aspect should have been given more attention.
But then we don’t know the bigger story arc (since obviously the ending was more of cliffhanger) and I think that it’s save to assume that this “virgin birth” will play an important role in a sequel. At the very least I think it’s premature to claim that any other plot device could have been used to get Ivo involved. Also this is one of the major plot points and hardly an afterthought or excuse to drag her into the story.
As for the jokes at her expense and incredulity: I see your point, but if we assume that the virgin plot is there for a reason, I would have found it rather strange if the characters had reacted any different.
My personal, unrelated critique would be that I simply didn’t find this part of the plot very interesting or convincing. It made for a very slow start.
Ivo’s mother: I think one of the problems here is that she is paired with the cool “stoner” Dad.
The mother plays the role of an antagonist, at least for a while, while the Dad seems to be on our side, even if he clearly has a problematic, lethargic character, too.
But I wonder what the developers are supposed to do? Show the mom in a more positive light?
Come up with a different story line, so they don’t have to portray a woman negatively? Give screen time to her inner struggles?
Her motivations are clear, (clear enough at least for a side character in a game like this, in my opinion), it’s obvious she means well, even if she does more harm than good and realizes that at the end, and even though she is a stereotype and you could call that lazy writing, your complaint seems a bit one sided.
It’s also true you have a good chance of guessing the personality of a character in the game by simply looking at them, but again: true for males and females alike. Even in the case of the zombies who obviously are meant to address the problem of judging a book by its cover.
Munkus isn’t exactly a feast for the eyes, either. You can complain that stereotypes are being hammered in that way: Wacky people look wacky, evil people look evil, Bloch looks like he as a stick up his ass and that the ugly kid is indeed annoying and unlikable; but I dare say you’d complain as well if the daughter was a beautiful princess who is used to have everything her way.
So what’s the solution? Make her look as neutral as possible?
She IS a steoretype, she is supposed to be ugly and annoying. I’m going out on a limb here but I assume if she was a boy, she would have been ugly, too. (And I suspect you would come to the opposite conclusion. )
If the nosy oracle would have been female, would it have been another bullet point on your list?
Is the bounty hunter being afraid of spiders and Esther being timid negative, too, despite all their positive traits? (And especially with the bounty hunter I think you are reaching. )
The gold digger is a clear case, of course, but all in all I don’t think that the females are portrayed any more negative than the males.
The internet troll, the stickler Bloch, the corrupt and lazy guard, the conspiracy theorist, the bought press, the greedy merchant, the ogre twins (dimwit brute/haughty pansy): The scheming, powerhungry politician fits perfectly into the Seastone cast. But because she is female and acts according to her background story and is optically a caricature like ALL of the aforementioned, there is suddenly an “alarming attitude”? Sorry, I don’t see it.
“I’d say that the artifact hardly would have made Ivo pregnant if it was against her will. So I’d give the benefit of the doubt, here, and assume that this was a heartfelt wish shared by both Nate AND Ivo. Now of course this is still problematic and scary and maybe that aspect should have been given more attention.
But then we don’t know the bigger story arc (since obviously the ending was more of cliffhanger) and I think that it’s save to assume that this “virgin birth” will play an important role in a sequel. At the very least I think it’s premature to claim that any other plot device could have been used to get Ivo involved. Also this is one of the major plot points and hardly an afterthought or excuse to drag her into the story.
As for the jokes at her expense and incredulity: I see your point, but if we assume that the virgin plot is there for a reason, I would have found it rather strange if the characters had reacted any different.
My personal, unrelated critique would be that I simply didn’t find this part of the plot very interesting or convincing. It made for a very slow start.”
This is a very fair argument and an angle I hadn’t considered, so thank you for bringing it to my attention! As I mentioned in my (positive) review of the game http://cliqist.com/2015/04/15/giggles-and-puzzles-galore-in-the-book-of-unwritten-tales-2/ I hadn’t played BoUT 1, so I may have missed out on some key information, and that might have been good to emphasize in this article. I never thought King ART intended any harm, and I sincerely believe they really only meant to make everyone laugh (which they certainly achieved with me!)
You’re following argument is plausible too, about Ivo’s mother.
“It’s also true you have a good chance of guessing the personality of a character in the game by simply looking at them, but again: true for males and females alike. Even in the case of the zombies who obviously are meant to address the problem of judging a book by its cover.
Munkus isn’t exactly a feast for the eyes, either. You can complain that stereotypes are being hammered in that way: Wacky people look wacky, evil people look evil, Bloch looks like he as a stick up his ass and that the ugly kid is indeed annoying and unlikable; but I dare say you’d complain as well if the daughter was a beautiful princess who is used to have everything her way.
So what’s the solution? Make her look as neutral as possible?
She IS a steoretype, she is supposed to be ugly and annoying. I’m going out on a limb here but I assume if she was a boy, she would have been ugly, too. (And I suspect you would come to the opposite conclusion. )”
Well, as I was telling another commenter, I have no issue with stereotypes per se. They serve their purpose in art, but my concern is over the ratio of gender-based stereotypes as opposed to more general personality-based stereotypes. This is quickly becoming my favorite argument in this discussion, but I’ve brought it up with the other commenters that if you look at say, the Disney female villains, you’ll see that (on a ratio-basis) there are more unattractive female villains than unattractive male villains. It seems to be a common tactic in cartoonish media that unlikeable women are shown as the opposite of the ideal feminine image. Thus, why I brought it up at all.
“If the nosy oracle would have been female, would it have been another bullet point on your list?
Is the bounty hunter being afraid of spiders and Esther being timid negative, too, despite all their positive traits? (And especially with the bounty hunter I think you are reaching. )”
Sorry, I forget who the oracle is. As I mentioned elsewhere, I had no issues with Esther’s character. I thought she was really well done. I also conceded that Lizzie the bounty hunter was the mildest case out of that list, and perhaps she shouldn’t even be there, but the few scenes she had warranted mention in my estimation.
“The gold digger is a clear case, of course, but all in all I don’t think that the females are portrayed any more negative than the males.
The internet troll, the stickler Bloch, the corrupt and lazy guard, the conspiracy theorist, the bought press, the greedy merchant, the ogre twins (dimwit brute/haughty pansy): The scheming, powerhungry politician fits perfectly into the Seastone cast.”
My argument wasn’t that the women were cast in negative lights so much as cast in gender-based stereotypes to a higher degree than the men. Again, I have no issue with the use of stereotypes in stories. I do think it’s lazy writing, but sometimes it just works.
“But because she is female and acts according to her background story and is optically a caricature like ALL of the aforementioned, there is suddenly an “alarming attitude”? Sorry, I don’t see it.”
I’m afraid you’re neglecting to take into account a big part of WHY I think these various things are a cause for concern. On their own, I wouldn’t have said anything, but you cannot forget the focus of my article, which was Ivo becoming pregnant by some unknown force without her expressed consent, and the ridicule and rejection she suffered as a result of that. Boil that story down to its points, and it runs parallel with many real life date-rape stories. THAT is why I said the attitude toward women was alarming. Combined with everything, it is, at the very least, enough to get you to think, which I believe I have succeeded in achieving.
Thank you for your response!
“My argument wasn’t that the women were cast in negative lights so much as cast in gender-based stereotypes to a higher degree than the men.”
I know, I just don’t agree, especially if you’re going to look for niche tropes. Being a control freak in itself is not a gender-based stereotype. Being a controlling mum naturally is. But by that logic the humorless, sex- and joyless bureaucrat Bloch is a male stereotype, too, as is the internet troll or the oracle, which is binge watching TV or online series under questionable hygienic and nutritional circumstances. (The floating creature with the many eyes, perhaps he was called differently.) This does not mean that female counterparts don’t exist, just as there surely plenty of male control dads out there, (and you could find tropes for them as well, if you wanted) it’s just that the usual cliche is a different one and while the game does make some meek attempts to play with those stereotypes at places like with the headhunter, it simply embraces them for the most part. If you have gender based stereotypes for the females, it would be very surprising to not see the matching stereotyping applied to the men, especially in a medieval fantasy world. Nate is basically a walking stereotype, but as a main character he gets a bit more development.
Also I didn’t count, but I think there are more male characters in the game than female, so this could be another reason that they can be perceived as more varied.
To be honest I’m not really sure how the Disney argument applies, unless you are arguing that the game should actively challenge those presumed notions.
I’d just say that in a game like this a character has to be “something” and it should be something that’s quick to grasp.
Lady van Buren simply won’t be a regular hard working female who fights an honorable fight. And she will look her part, too. (Which isn’t particularly ugly, by the standards of the game, if you ask me. It’s just a Thatcher like figure that overcompensates for her lack in height and uses a bit too much makeup.)
On the other hand she mustn’t be too beautiful, of course, because someone would find a trope for that, too.
“Boil that story down to its points, and it runs parallel with many real life date-rape stories. THAT is why I said the attitude toward women was alarming.”
I have a hard time swallowing that and maybe lack a female perspective, but point taken.
“enough to get you to think, which I believe I have succeeded in achieving.”
Sure enough!
Ok! Well said on pretty much all those points. I still don’t agree, but I’m not frothing mad about any of this either (I had to explain in the other threads, but my concern over this subject =/= burning righteous offense) so lacking that passion, I don’t really see the need to split hairs. I believe that places us at an impasse.
“To be honest I’m not really sure how the Disney argument applies, unless you are arguing that the game should actively challenge those presumed notions.”
I was tying it in as an industry example, to illustrate why I was having the concern to begin with. In media with cartoonish design, this caricaturization of female villains is a common practice, and BoUT2 has cartoon-like design. It was an attempt at showing that this isn’t just an isolated case. I couldn’t think of any game related examples off the top of my head, mostly because I can’t even remember the last “cartoonish” game I’ve played.
Thanks for offering your views!
Pregnancy: A Gender-Based Stereotype lol
“Feminism is the radical notion that women are people….who have no negative qualities”